David Bohm, Infinite Potential, consciousness through Planck scale processes?

 I'm sharing a comment from over at Center For Inquiry on a thread titled "David Bohm - Dalai Lama conversation" which looks at the Infinite Potential video about the work of David Bohm and it's "astounding implications."  The video is about happenings in the quantum realm, Planck scales, while we humans and the consciousness our biological bodies produce, live in the macro biological realm of Earth.

Brian Greene shared a wonderful metaphor to help visualize the vast gap between Bohm’s world of Infinite Potential at the Planck scale, and the biological reality we exist within:

A tree is to the Observable Universe, as the Planck scale is to an Atom.

My problem with this Infinite Potential video (all the others like it) boils down to discussing human consciousness without ever discussing Earth, or Evolution, or the fact that we humans are evolved biological sensing creatures.

Understanding our human consciousness requires appreciating the reality, that it is our bodies that produce our consciousness - and it is a half billion years of evolution that created the body you inhabit. That understanding changes your mind’s relationship with that body of yours, to the better.

That’s first base towards making sense of the human that you are and that I am. Nothing about us can truly make sense until we’ve achieved such a fundamental insight.

Muthukrishna - Theory of Everyone vs. Earth's Ultimatum

A CFI member recommended that I listen to this interview of Michael Muthukrishna. I’ve listened to it twice and enjoyed the interview, especially the first 50 minutes about how we got here. Some fine observations that sync with my understanding. I made plenty of notes and will save them incase someone shows an interest in discussing the talk.  What I want to discuss happened 51 minutes into the discussion. 

Sean Carroll's MIndscape Podcast #255

Michael Muthukrishna on Developing a Theory of Everyone

Can we even imagine a “Theory of Everyone,” providing basic organizing principles for society?

Michael Muthukrishna (Ph.D. in psychology) believes we can, and indeed that we can see the outlines of such a theory emerging, based on the relationships of people to each other and to the physical resources available.

Michael Muthukrishna received his Ph.D. in psychology from the University of British Columbia. He is currently Associate Professor of Economic Psychology at the London School of Economics and Political Science. … His new book is A Theory of Everyone: The New Science of Who We Are, How We Got Here, and Where We’re Going.       podbean.com   Video Link

“Phase transition in mental ability” - an interesting key concept, I like it. Are human’s capable of such a thing? I ask because reality challenged the entire human race in the 1960s to ‘70s.  It came as a realization and warning that humanity and Earth had entered dangerous unchartered existential territory.

Thanks to science we were increasingly taking on Godly powers and our population had entered an exponential population explosion, while Earth's natural systems and landscapes had limits who's crossing would start increasingly damaging those complex systems that support human society, and if we were really careless, we could even trigger events leading to our extinction.

The choice was simple, slow down a little, use a little forethought and wisdom before rushing into the unknown.  To recognize and learn from our mistakes.  Learn more about Earth’s processes.  Strive to work with those processes.  Instead the powers-that-be decided citizens should hold nature and Earth's needs in contempt.

In Defense of Women

Please

In defense of women, postcard (activism)

I need a little help with postage.

I'm looking at this from 68 years old, having been blessed with all the stages of life starting as a son, brother, husband, father, step-father, uncle, grandfather, friend, with women being intimately interwoven into every phase of my life (and at every level) - I've lived life's personal dramas, loses and successes.  This is my distillation of this facet of my experience - A woman deserves the right to be the jury and judge of her own fate, which by nature includes her fetus.  

Respecting a woman's right to her own self-defense and sovereignty over her body seems to me the least repugnant of all options.

I made an initial run of a 250 postcards and addressed them to women's rights organizations and key Washington Democrats.  I also starting a thread over at the CFI Forum in case anyone out there wants to join the discussion.  Now I printed another thousand and around 250 addressed and stamped, and it'll be a few weeks before being able to purchase another couple hundred dollars worth of postcard stamp at .53@.  That's why I've decided to see if anyone might be interested in helping with stamps.  Should it go well, I'd love to buy more postcards.  Can you help?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

CFI - "Learning about Earth can't trump religion." Say what?

 Sharing some food for thought:

MPC:  I cannot imagine how transcendence of nature, sublimation, ‘glorification’ can possibly work.

(At the CFI Forum tread: Can Christianity be progressive? 

transcendence = “Transcendence is the quality of being able to go beyond normal limits or boundaries.”

I believe MPC is missing the point.  Seems to me, it’s not about attaining some spiritual "transcendent" connection with nature, a la new age, or such.

It’s about realizing that Earth’s Evolution is an actual factual reality, it’s about realizing that all these folds within folds of harmonic complexity actually means something. 

Deeply appreciating that within myself there are direct roots to achievements hundreds of millions even billions of years ago. Learning about and understanding the outlines of those various folds within folds, that’s emotionally satisfying, so it’s worth it just for that, but there is more.

It’s about truly, deeply, viscerally, grasping that your brain and sense of self, evolved out of the mammalian animal brain and their sense of self, which in turn evolved out of an earlier brain and sense of self, with it’s roots in even more primitive ways of sensing/processing/acting found in the simplest of life forms.

The transcendence is not the object, it’s the learning and accumulating an understanding of the flowing complexity. 

Then as that journey matures the transcendence happens, as a result of all the accumulating mass of facts and learning coming together into a cohesive harmonic whole that makes sense.

I think that’s when the visceral sense of connection emerges. Is that transcendence? I don’t know, but I do know it feels good.

The fun thing is, this emergent holistic understanding affords an inner sense of solidity and belonging that goes way beyond what manmade promises can ever offer, even beyond the confines of my life. Isn’t that what people keep searching for?

(7.01) An Alternative Philosophical Perspective - “ Earth Centrism ”

(7.02) Appreciating the Physical Reality ~ Human Mindscape divide

(7.03) Being an element in Earth’s Pageant of Evolution

(7.04) It’s not a “ Body-Mind problem ” it’s an “ Ego-God problem .”

Being able to not just say, but feel that: “I am an element in the pageant of Evolution” - that goes a long way.

Philo+Sophia, Love of Wisdom, A Student Resource

We’ll finish my ‘Hoffman's, Case Against Reality, 'Playing Basketball in Zerogravity, review project’ by looking at the serious side of philosophy.  It seems only fair considering some of my wise ass remarks in previous segments.

I’ll admit to having issues with the showboats who demonstrate little respect for honesty, and constructive learning.  As for serious philosophy, that I can relate to on a personal homegrown level.  

That’s why I’m grateful to Lausten over at CFI for sharing a genuinely insightful talk by Richard Carrier, explaining what philosophy was, is and isn’t.  I’ve rerun it a couple times and it keeps improving.  It's a wonderfully fitting closing segment for this review, and I hope Skepticon doesn’t mind me sharing some of Carrier's posters. 

For the complete set see, RichardCarrier.info/philosophy.

HamboneProductions

Skepticon

Scientism: On getting lost within the Mindscape.

It’s an odd sensation, periodically rediscovering how some things that I find self-evident, seem absolutely foreign (if not invisible) to most others.  When I embraced the term “Mindscape” a couple years back, I thought I did a good job of capturing a metaphor for those universes of thoughts that we possess just beyond our physical brain with its neurons, synapses and electro-chemical cascades.  The seat of ego, emotions, thought, reflection, god seeking, knowledge seeking, love seeking, success thirsting, the sense of self, our life’s spirit, our soul, whatever labels you want to tag onto it.  

The world flowing through our physical senses and then getting sorted through our genetic and environmental filters before being reflected against the metaphorical retina of our brain and infusing through our body.  The thing that thinks it’s telling our body what to do, when most the time it’s the other way around.  The thing that believes it’s in control of us, or out of control, as the case may be.  The thing that is us, but has yet to be found by scientist or philosopher.  

I’ve discovered that suggesting we should categorize it differently than the stuff of atoms and the laws of physics invites the wildest mental gymnastics intent on drawing the discussion away from the essence of acknowledging the ephemeral nature of our human mind, that thing that animates our bodies during our short dance across physical reality’s stage, or more specifically, Earth - and then disappears when we die.

Debating the Mindscape

One of my frustrations is the intellectual isolation, so it’s always refreshing getting a little serious pushback and challenges.  This past week at the Center For Inquiry's Forum, my virtual corner pub so to speak, my term “Mindscape” along with my contention of a fundamental divide between Mindscape and Physical Reality has received a thrashing.  In particular, D.R.Hansen thinks "Mindscape" is an awful term, though he bases that on some misconceptions that I'm happy to clarify.

Since I’ve been wanting to better enunciate those conceptions anyways, I'm taking the opportunity to share highlights from our discussion at “So, what the heck is Scientism?.”  A title meant to entice visits and discussion regarding "scientism", but that was detoured into a discussion about the validity of coining the term "Mindscape."   Enjoy.  Visit CFI to join the discussion.

July 27, 2020 at 10:14 pm

@drhansenjr

RANT WARNING!

On the concept of “mindscape”:

I have serious issues with the concept of “mindscape” that are both linguistic and conceptual.

Some definitions describe it as referring to (if you will pardon my oversimplifying paraphrasing) “stuff that goes on in the mind.” 

Yes, the “stuff that goes on in the mind” please refer to appendix 1 for more technical descriptions.

I would regard such definitions as including this “stuff” as a elements of physical reality, products of the neurological structures and activity of the brain. 

They may feel like something different than physical reality since we can’t touch or see them, and since we have a very limited knowledge of how the brain manifests them, but it does not follow that because those feelings seem mysterious and because there are gaps in our understanding of them that they exist as things outside physical reality, … any more than our distant ancestors’ sense that meteorological phenomena or the presence of stars in the sky were the work of some being or force outside their physical reality.

Yes, I agreed.  *I can also see where my clumsy wording, and in particular employing “vs” was a counter-productive choice in my original essay. (also see TimB at the bottom of this page)

It was a mistake, I wanted to be provocative but instead was misleading.

I will point out that I’ve never written that the “Mindscape” is outside of reality or that it’s part of a separate metaphysical reality.  Though I can now see how others could have misunderstand. 

I have always spoken about recognizing the profound boundary between Physical Reality and our individual and collective Mindscapes.  This is about psychology, this is about us recognizing personal limitations and gaining a better perspective for the grand stage of reality that we exist within.

Why Accept Malicious Willful Ignorance and the Embrace of Lies?

I haven't posted anything since the COVID-19 roller coaster hit us and truth be told I'm feeling too angry and contemptuous of our current leaders, business, political, news oligarchs and their continued delusionals thinking spawned contempt for health experts and serious professional scientists.  

I don't have anything to add, except for focusing on enunciating my perspective and specifics about our dysfunctional public dialogue.  Perhaps better defining our need for some genuine militancy in defense of respecting Physical Reality along with truth and Honest Constructive Debates, where good faith learning is the goal.

Unfortunately, or then again perhaps fortunately, I've gotten myself involved in a different and very time consuming project so, other than the usual fits and starts and sloppy notes, I haven't done much beyond letting it simmer.  Though I have been writing, it's been over at Center For Inquiry where I can let my hair down in a way I won't do around here.

The following comes from a thread I started at CFI - simply food for thought: 

REGARDING MALICIOUS WILLFUL IGNORANCE AND THE EMBRACE OF LIES.

https://centerforinquiry.org/forums/topic/regarding-malicious-willful-ignorance-and-the-embrace-of-lies/page/4/#post-326347

please click on the images for a clear version.

Or visit the post itself and participate in a discussion.

______________________________________________________________

Perhaps I should add the first post of this thread

______________________________________________________________

For what it's worth:

DECEMBER 30, 2018

d) Considering our dysfunctional public dialogue in 14 verses.

https://confrontingsciencecontrarians.blogspot.com/2018/12/our-dysfunctional-public-dialogue.html

a) Who says understanding Earth’s Evolution is irrelevant? 2018

https://confrontingsciencecontrarians.blogspot.com/2018/12/earths-evolution-is-irrelevant-2018.html

DECEMBER 31, 2018

f) Considering the Missing Key to Stephen Gould’s “Nonoverlapping Magisteria”

https://confrontingsciencecontrarians.blogspot.com/2018/12/the-missing-key-gould.html

e) Map v Territory Problem, Statistical Certainty vs Geophysical Realities

https://confrontingsciencecontrarians.blogspot.com/2018/12/statistical-certainty-vs-geophysical.html

DECEMBER 30, 2018

c) Intellectually Confronting Faith-Based thinking and Dogma Driven Deceptions

https://confrontingsciencecontrarians.blogspot.com/2018/12/confronting-faith-based-delusions.html

b) Saying No To Reality. Questioning the Geologic Column.

https://confrontingsciencecontrarians.blogspot.com/2018/12/saying-no-to-reality-questioning.html

FEBRUARY 10, 2020

Considering a Fundamental Cosmic Truth

https://confrontingsciencecontrarians.blogspot.com/2020/02/accepting-fundamental-cosmic-truth.html

FEBRUARY 22, 2020

Diary - Musing on a half Century of Climate Science Awareness, 2020-02-22

https://confrontingsciencecontrarians.blogspot.com/2020/02/diary-half-century-agw-awareness.html

DECEMBER 25, 2019

Diary, 12/25/2019 - Rhetorical Jujutsu, case in point.

https://confrontingsciencecontrarians.blogspot.com/2019/12/diary-rhetorical-jujutsu-caseinpoint.html

DECEMBER 11, 2019

Bringing it back to Earth Centrism

https://confrontingsciencecontrarians.blogspot.com/2019/12/bringing-it-back-to-earth-centrism.html

DECEMBER 7, 2019

Introduction to Cc's Pageant of Evolution project.

https://confrontingsciencecontrarians.blogspot.com/2019/12/introduction-pageant-evolution-project.html

Pageant of Earth's Evolution (in 24hr) part two

https://confrontingsciencecontrarians.blogspot.com/2019/12/pageant-of-earth-evolution-1.html

https://confrontingsciencecontrarians.blogspot.com/2019/12/pageant-of-earth-evolution-in-24hr-part.html

STOP CALLING SURFACE "COOLING" GLOBAL COOLING ! ! !

https://confrontingsciencecontrarians.blogspot.com/2018/12/stop-calling-surface-cooling-global.html

email:  citizenschallenge gmail dot come

Religious Thinking v. Scientific Thinking

When looking up Cambrian Period information you'll get flooded with Creationist Intelligent Design propaganda.  Stuff that freely misrepresents the facts and their "opponents," instead coming up with disconnected just so stories in complete disregard of the full spectrum of available understanding - so beware. 

That is why I'm sharing this comment that I originally penned for a discussion over at Center For Inquiry's Forum.  It belongs here since a better understanding of the difference between religious thinking and serious scientific thinking is worth trying to push into the public consciousness! 

The challenge is clarifying the key difference between Religious Thinking and Scientific Thinking.  Both of which are products of our Human Mindscape.

It starts with acknowledging that all we see and experience, is through our senses and then processed by our brains to the best of our individual learning & abilities. 

The "Mindscape" is just that, our mind, the product of our body, nerves, brain and all we sense along with our emotions and thoughts.

Religions are all about our “Mindscape" itself, with it's constant dialogue and self-story telling and fears, emotions and needs.  Its freedom to poetically tie together whatever it wants.  It is the realm of the metaphysical thoughts and daydreaming and story telling.